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Sundries
...a sweatshop of moxie

Saturday, July 19, 2008

Iraq Is Won

All it needed was stick-toedness. Conviction. And the resolve of Iraqis to help out in transforming their country.

Who knew? Well, George W. Bush, for one. And John McCain.

There is precious little similarity between these two men but when it comes to America's strengths, especially in its military, they are made of the same cloth.

May the 4000 plus miliarity personnel who gave their lives for this cause, a tally which was a good 30 minutes of casualities in one day of World War I, have their legacy praised rather than buttressed for political ends by anyone.

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17 Comments:

  • Yeah, right. 4000. What about the hundreds of thousands Iraqis? What about the billions of dollars gone with the wind? What about the totally unnecessary and illegal invasion of a mostly harmless country?

    The Democrats disgust me no less than the Republicans with their Iraq attitude. Why does nobody propose to impeach Bush and try him for war crimes? They propose going out and leaving the mess in place, but that's a cop-out. They too share the blame for the war, as they voted like sheep to support sending troops there and introduce lots of unnecessary legislation, that didn't increase security, but eroded freedoms.

    Reality in the States disgusts me more and more with each passing day. I'm seriously considering moving back to Europe.

    By Blogger El Kot, at Sat Jul 19, 01:53:00 pm GMT-4  

  • Well, el kot we're just not in love with you either. That door to Europe? Don't let it hit you in the ass on your way out!

    By Blogger Ron, at Sat Jul 19, 03:33:00 pm GMT-4  

  • Reality in the States disgusts me more and more with each passing day. I'm seriously considering moving back to Europe.

    Elko, that doesn't seem like you. I say this with love -- please cool down, my friend.

    Ron, I know it was insulting to you (to me too) to hear what was written, but every friend of Sundries should behave according to the example of the lady blogger here before you.

    Cheers,
    Victoria

    By Blogger vbspurs, at Sat Jul 19, 06:03:00 pm GMT-4  

  • You're right, Vic; I apologize. I let my temper get the best of me.

    By Blogger Ron, at Sat Jul 19, 06:36:00 pm GMT-4  

  • Vic -- check my blog for a humorous video right at the top...

    By Blogger Ron, at Sat Jul 19, 06:40:00 pm GMT-4  

  • What about the totally unnecessary and illegal invasion of a mostly harmless country?...

    Why does nobody propose to impeach Bush and try him for war crimes?


    That was the harmless regime that fed people into woodchippers, raped children in front of their parents before killing whole families, used WMD on other countries and their own villagers, tortured losing Olympic athletes?

    And you want to try Bush instead of Bathist scum?

    a warped moral viewpoint IMHO

    By Blogger The Drill SGT, at Sat Jul 19, 07:03:00 pm GMT-4  

  • Ron, I adore you. Thanks. :)

    Cheers,
    Victoria

    By Blogger vbspurs, at Sat Jul 19, 09:42:00 pm GMT-4  

  • Vics, I didn't mean to be insulting, and I don't think I am. Truth shouldn't be insulting. Maybe inconvenient to some, but so what.

    You're right, I'm a bit bitter at the moment for personal reasons, but I hope this doesn't reflect on my attitude, which I strive to be fair. I might be snappier than usual, though. Sorry.

    By Blogger El Kot, at Sat Jul 19, 10:24:00 pm GMT-4  

  • That was the harmless regime that fed people into woodchippers, raped children in front of their parents before killing whole families, used WMD on other countries and their own villagers, tortured losing Olympic athletes?

    That's true, but was that the reason Bush invaded? To exact revenge for the raped children and murdered families? Shall I remind you of the shameful scenes of Colin Powell lying in the face of the whole world about imaginary WMDs? Shall I remind you how, when told the truth, this country couldn't stand it and invented "freedom fries" out of spite?

    And you want to try Bush instead of Bathist scum?

    FYI, I never said "instead". Since the "Baathist scum" was already tried (and executed, in case you missed the event), the intended reading should be "in addition to".

    By Blogger El Kot, at Sat Jul 19, 10:38:00 pm GMT-4  

  • Here's a quote this week from the Iraqi PM that pretty much covers it. They think it was worth the cost:
    SPIEGEL: Mr. Prime Minister, the war and its consequences have cost more than 100,000 lives and caused great suffering in your country. Saddam Hussein and his regime are now part of the past. Was all of this worth the price?
    Maliki: The casualties have been and continue to be enormous. But anyone who was familiar with the dictator’s nature and his intentions knows what could have been in store for us instead of this war. Saddam waged wars against Iran and Kuwait, and against Iraqis in the north and south of his own country, wars in which hundreds of thousands died. And he was capable of instigating even more wars. Yes, the casualties are great, but I see our struggle as an enormous effort to avoid other such wars in the future.

    By Blogger The Drill SGT, at Sun Jul 20, 09:11:00 am GMT-4  

  • Amen to the post.

    By Blogger Robert, at Sun Jul 20, 01:46:00 pm GMT-4  

  • So we fought for five years and spent a trillion dollars to

    1. Give the Iranians everything they wanted (Saddam gone and an Iraqi government that is friendly to Iran) but couldn't achieve in nine years of fighting in the 1980's, and

    2. Distract us from the people who actually did attack us, giving them and their allies the Taliban a chance to regroup and make it much harder for us to finish the job over the next few years than it would have to get it over and done with when we had them on the run five years ago.

    And oh, yeah-- the Iraqi President said yesterday that he likes Obama's withdrawal plan. And that's a few days after he flatly refused to accept George Bush's proposed 'status of forces' agreement.

    Well, Ron-- all I can say is I hope that Bush/McCain don't let the Iraq door hit them on the way out-- now that it is clear that yes, there will be a timetable.

    And Victoria-- I did a post on Bush's flip-flops (chief among them recognizing reality after al-Maliki's statement and saying he might accept a timetable.) Come on over and post a comment if you want to disagree ;)

    By Blogger Eli Blake, at Mon Jul 21, 11:51:00 pm GMT-4  

  • Drill Sgt:

    I hope you read the whole Der Spiegel interview.

    And of course they are happy we got rid of their brutal, bloody dictator.

    Also, the people in Zimbabwe would be happy if we got rid of their brutal, bloody dictator, the people in Myanmar would be similarly happy, so would the people in North Korea, Syria, China, Cuba, and all the other countries in the world where they have brutal, bloody dictators.

    But is it the role of the U.S. to go in and shed our own blood and spend our own money (and I can't even begin to tell you how much a trillion dollars of less debt would help our economy about now) just to fix other people's problems? I've got no problem with supporting (including providing arms if there is no other way) people who are fighting to overthrow a government like, to cite an obvious example, Robert Mugabe's, but it is not up to the United States to take upon ourselves the role of world policeman.

    And we have learned our lesson the hard way from Iraq. Even a year or two ago there was still serious talk about building permanent bases in Iraq from which to invade Iran. The Bush administration's flip-flop last week on talking to Iran (just a month after the President himself said those who suggested such a thing were 'appeasers') shows that we have learned. Right now there would be neither the military force available nor the political will present to invade Iran under pretty much any circumstances short of a direct Iranian attack on U.S. interests. That is one good thing we can take from our misadventure in Iraq.

    By Blogger Eli Blake, at Tue Jul 22, 12:01:00 am GMT-4  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Eli Blake, at Tue Jul 22, 12:01:00 am GMT-4  

  • Eli --

    1. Really? Oh, well. Iran's government isn't exactly impressing even his own people. From Strategypage's analysis of Iran:

    The basic problem is that an Islamic conservative minority has veto power over the reformist majority. The supply of peaceful solutions is drying up. After that comes another revolution. Half the population consists of ethnic minorities (mainly Turks and Arabs), and these groups are getting more restive and violent. Meanwhile, the Islamic conservatives are determined to support terrorism overseas and build nuclear weapons at home, rather than improving the economy and living standards. Unrest and terrorist violence becoming more common, and government seeks foreign adventures to distract an unhappy population.


    2. I'm shocked they didn't consult you as it seem you know so much more than everyone else on this topic.

    And oh, yeah-- the Iraqi President said yesterday that he likes Obama's withdrawal plan. Hmmm...Kaus over at Slate seems to think that's not as self-evident you would make it appear.

    One way or another Bush was leaving because his term is up. As for that timetable? We're not there yet, not by a long shot. But, hey even Obama may be "flexible" on that one. Staying isn't necessarily a condition of things.

    but it is not up to the United States to take upon ourselves the role of world policeman. Why not? Perhaps we are suited to the role. Perhaps not; but, again it's discussable to me, and my reaction to el kots' statement was against the venom more than anything. Have you counted the trillions the US has saved ourselves and the world for "policing" Asia and Europe since 1945?

    By Blogger Ron, at Tue Jul 22, 12:53:00 am GMT-4  

  • Ron:

    1. Your point? Of course I know about Iran's intrinsic weakness, in fact I wrote two years ago:

    In Iran, 2/3 of the population is under thirty, and they don't remember the Shah, Ayatollah Khomeini or the revolution. Many of them hate living under the strictures of an Islamic society. Young people in Iran want reform, and they want a better life.... A current of wanting to break out of the vicelike grip of this society is bubbling just under the surface and the mullahs have to spend a great deal of effort now just to keep it under wraps.

    which I'm glad you've also realized, but that in no way changes the bald fact that we did for the Iranians exactly what they fought for nine years trying to do and failed.

    2. Have you counted the trillions the US has saved ourselves and the world for "policing" Asia and Europe since 1945?

    Meanwhile we've been spending the hundreds of trillions while the Germans, French, Japanese, Koreans and others we've been 'protecting' have invested their money in everything from basic research to universal healthcare to achieving at least some level of energy independence. If you think that is such a good idea, then go stand guard over your neighbor's house while he goes to work every day and hope he gives you a tip. I for one am not willing to spend more dollars (all borrowed, in the case of Iraq, to be paid back some time in the future with interest) or lose more American lives unless you can make a clear case that we are defending America against people who have harmed us and will again if we don't destroy them (which case you can make in Afghanistan, but not in Iraq.)

    And here is the quote from Der Spiegel:

    "U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama talks about 16 months. That, we think, would be the right timeframe for a withdrawal, with the possibility of slight changes....Those who operate on the premise of short time periods in Iraq today are being more realistic."

    Sounds pretty clear to me.

    By Blogger Eli Blake, at Tue Jul 22, 10:09:00 pm GMT-4  

  • whoops, I should have just said (as you did) the
    'trillions.' Even Iraq and Bush's medicare drug giveaway won't give us a debt in the hundreds of trillions. Maybe in the tens of trillions though by the time he is all done.

    By Blogger Eli Blake, at Tue Jul 22, 10:10:00 pm GMT-4  

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